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More on Chris Matthews "criminality" comments

TV Guide, of all places, has a brief interview with Chris Matthews, where he elaborates a bit more on his comments at last week's Hardball 10th anniversary party:

TVGUIDE.COM: You caused a stir with some remarks you made at the 10th-anniversary party for Hardball, at which you said [referring to the perjury conviction of Vice President Dick Cheney's aide Scooter Libby] that the Bush administration had "finally been caught in its criminality."

MATTHEWS: I thought on the 10th anniversary it would be good to celebrate the First Amendment, which gives us all our living. We reviewed in brief the remarkable experience of covering the Clinton [scandal] and the defense of the war with Iraq. And the difference in these two cases was that although I was extremely tough on Clinton, there was never any attempt to silence me — whereas there was a concerted effort by [Vice President Cheney's office] to silence me. It came in the form of three different people calling trying to quiet me.

TVGUIDE.COM: Why are you coming out about this now?

MATTHEWS: I think people ought to know this. There's a lot going on among our producers, our young bookers, now that I never noticed before. There is an almost menacing call that you get whenever someone hears something they don't like — their people call up and threaten, or challenge, and get very nasty. That's now become the norm. I told people, just tell me this from now on. Every time someone calls and tries one of those things, whether it's the Mitt Romney campaign or the John McCain campaign or whatever, I will put it on the air. I'm tired of this kind of pressure that's now become normal among the young staffers on these campaigns. When it's coming from the vice president's office — there was a concerted effort to stop me from reporting on what the vice president's office was doing in terms of making the case that there was a nuclear threat from Iraq. I wanted to remind people that having a talk show that is outspoken is not without its troubles.

The other difference between the Clinton-Lewinski scandal and the lies that led to the invasion and occupation of Iraq is this: in the first case, a president lied under oath about an affair and hurt his family. In the other case, a president and his administration lied to the American people to justify an invasion, which has resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people - including almost 3,900 American soldiers - and the destabilization of an entire region.

So they're not really comparable. But kudos to Matthews for speaking out on pressure from the Bush administration, as well as apparent pressure from some of the Republican presidential candidates, too (!).



"In the other case, a president and his administration lied to the American people to justify an invasion". by Mike


"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them.
That is our bottom line."
President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear.
We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

"Iraq is a long way from USA but, what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S.Constitution and Laws, to take necessary actions, (including, if appropriate,
air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction
Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs
continue a pace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

...etc ...etc
Quit drinkin' the move on kool-aid and get your facts straight. Bush has ran the war like a moron but everyone agreed Saddam had to go.

Hi Brian, thanks for your comments.

First, I didn't know MoveOn had their own brand of kool aid. It's not that blue flavor that looks like a cleaning product, is it? Because I don't really care for that flavor. And there's too much artificial sugar in kool aid, so I'd probably pass on it anyway.

Those are all interesting quotes, but none of them change the fact that it was George Bush and his administration who made the command decision to invade Iraq, on false pretext. It was the Bush administration that decided to take the go-it-alone approach, instead of engaging the world community in a unified approach. And it was the Bush administration who set up a provisional authority made up unqualified ideologues who had no place in Iraq, who laid the groundwork for the complete disaster we have on our hands right now. And so on, and so on.

It's also worth noting that none of your quotes call for direct acts of war. So I'm not sure they actually help your case. Every Democrat who voted to give President Bush the authority to invade Iraq should be held accountable. They should have known better. But the fact remains that it was a Republican controlled House and Senate that voted to give the President that authority, and it was the Bush administration that pulled the trigger on the invasion. And it's not just MoveOn members who believe that. 70 percent of the American people want out of Iraq, and the majority of the country thinks it was a mistake to invade Iraq. So you can't pretend it's only a sliver of lefty freaks that think this.

Do you really think it was a sound decision to invade Iraq, to continue to stay there, and potentially extend the conflict into a war with Iran?

Hey Mike,

"It's also worth noting that none of your quotes call for direct acts of war. So I'm not sure they actually help your case".

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998.
We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities.
Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated
the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his
chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do" Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological
weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program.
He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime He presents a
particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his
continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction
So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real ..."
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan.23.2003

OK, all the leading dem's at the time said that Saddam had to go. They all admit he'd been rebuilding his stockpiles since he kicked out the UN inspectors. He violated 17 UN resolutions over the years. He was NOT going to stop being a threat. Getting rid of Saddam WAS justified. Bush's main mistake after a justified invasion is thinking he could impose democracy on a bunch of 7th century barbarians. Yes, Bush did lie, but not about WMD, Bush lied when he said that this was a War On Terror, not a war on Islam. It is a war on Islam. Terror is just a tactic of Islam. We are fighting Islam. Not only is it not Politically Correct to say so, but it would only stir up more mischief makers.

Islam relies on corrupt dictators, kings, presidents-for-life, princes, and various strongmen dictators to govern their Islamic countries and to protect the faith. There is no place for these dictators in a democracy. Likewise, there is no place in a secular democracy for the "clerics" that benefit from supporting the reign of these dictators.

Democracy is an apostasy to the Moslem. Allah himself, through the prophet Mohommed, revealed the Koran and the Shariah law by which people are to be governed. To assume that men can govern themselves is an insult to Allah, Islam, the Koran and Shariah law. Therefore, democracy is against the basic tenets of Islam. Promoting or even discussing democracy is a head-lopping offense in Islam.

Bush's attempts to get a democracy going in Iraq threaten regional stability in a big way. If democracy is allowed to flourish in Iraq, every tin-horn dictator and head-lopping Islamic cleric will be made redundant. They know it too. They are fighting us with everything they have. Fortunately for the USA, the fighting is in Iraq.

Iraq is a rich nation. It has large petroleum reserves, and could function quite nicely as a prosperous democracy on it's GDP and oil revenues. Iraq could be an example of a secular democracy, but every one of those Moslem dictators and clerics across islam is dedicated to seeing that a democratic Iraq never comes about.

So, in summation, Bush lied. Western Civilzation is at war with Islam. I am confident that Western Civilization will eventually pull the ignorant savages out of the mud and sand, as it has done since the French Revolution; and the despots and Islamic clergy will flee to their lavish villas in Switzerland. It will take time, but we will win.

We can count on Islam's death throes to be bloody and violent. We will be badly scarred by this conflict, and as I write, Iran's Supreme Leader is directing their nuclear weapons program and the developement of their extended range Shahab-3 missiles. These are not positive developements. Israel may take a decisive position at any moment, and act.

The Islamists have the will to win, but not the means;
The West has the means to win, but not the will.

If it were not for the level of civility and restraint that Western Civilization extends to Islam, this entire conflict could be over in about 45 minutes. Let us hope that this level of civility and restrain prevails. A nuclear strike agains the USA could severily test our civility and restraint

Wow Brian, you are an incredible quote machine. What do you eat for breakfast, a stack of Bartleby washed down with a glass of Encyclopedia Britannica? Impressive!

I actually agree with some of your assertion though that leading Dems at the time of the war resolution were just as dopey and befuddled as our president. Those quotes prove that out.

So to your other points regarding war with Islam...are you saying that Islam alone is abhorrent to democracy? Are we then to believe that Muslims are incapable of living in a democracy? What does that say of orthodox Christians and Jews who also believe that God's law supersedes man's in all instances? Perhaps all religious fundamentalists should be gathered up and shot into space where they can colonize planets under their own religious doctrines? That's not a bad idea at all, actually. How's THAT for western civility and restraint?

And speaking of, I wouldn't bet it's George W. Bush supreme brand of civility and restraint that keeps the west from nuking the Muslim world. I would bet it's tactical and strategic rather than fuzzy feelings. Imagine a nuclear desolate Middle East, Indonesia, India, Eastern Europe (creeping on Western Europe)...shit, where do we STOP!?!?! The idea that this is a war on Islam as ridiculous as saying it's a war on terror. I declare war on PURPLE! Purple is trying to enforce its radical red-blue fusion ideology on the rest of us! We must act now to deter its diabolical caliphate of lavender hegemony!

I, for one, welcome Armageddon. I just hope it's televised better than this boring-ass war on terror.

I agree that it would make for a more peaceful planet (not to mention a way more fun one!) if we could send away all fundies of every denomination. Maybe ship them to Australia and turn off their internet and take away their boats and planes.

PS - I realize you used the phrase "ignorant savages" merely to ruffle some lefty feathers, but it's still worth pointing out that the Muslim world, especially between the 8th and 13th centuries, is pretty much responsible for most of the arts, economics, philosophy, sciences, and technology that we use today.

The whole crazy revolutionary theocratic thing only started to kick in after the first World War.

Yeah, thanks for that, Sayyid Qutb...

Hey Guys,
I do so love a good debate. Sorry about all the quotes, but I’ve come to the realization that in dealing with my friends on the left that I need all the quotes, facts and statistics that I can muster to help them see what's "right" :-) Yes, I do apologize for the ignorant savages riff, I should have said “radical” Islamists are ignorant savages, along with being murdering, subhuman cowards.

Now if you consider that there are one billion Muslims in the world and if only 1% are radicalized, that means there are TEN MILLION maniacs running around that would love nothing more than to slit your throat and enslave your women. (and trust me, it’s a hell of a lot more than 1%) Do a little research yourselves on radical islamists. It SHOULD scare the hell out of you.

This war has been going on against the modern western world for decades, and only now are we starting to fight back, even though it is currently being fought in an idiotic manner. It IS us against them and personally I'd rather be on the winning side. Here are just a few instances of “the religion of peace” at work. These are just the attacks against Americans; there are thousands of others from around the world if you’d like to see them.

Yes, war is a terrible thing and "Except for Ending Slavery, Fascism, Nazism and Communism, War Has Never Solved Anything"

February 23, 1970, Halhoul, West Bank. Palestinian Liberation Organization terrorists open fire on a busload of pilgrims killing Barbara Ertle of Michigan and wounding two other Americans.

March 28-29, 1970, Beirut, Lebanon. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) fired seven rockets at the U.S. Embassy, the American Insurance Company, Bank of America and the John F. Kennedy library.

September 14, 1970, En route to Amman, Jordan. The PFLP hijacked a TWA flight from Zurich, Switzerland and forced it to land in Amman. Four American citizens were injured.

May 30, 1972, Ben Gurion Airport, Israel. Three members of the Japanese Red Army, acting on the PFLP's bbehalf, carried out a machine-gun and grenade attack at Israel's main airport, killing 26 and wounding 78 people. Many of the casualties were American citizens, mostly from Puerto Rico.

September 5, 1972, Munich, Germany. During the Olympic Games in Munich, Black September, a front for Fatah, took hostage 11 members of the Israeli Olympic team. Nine athletes were killed including weightlifter David Berger, an American-Israeli from Cleveland, Ohio.

March 2, 1973, Khartoum, Sudan. Cleo A. Noel, Jr., U.S. ambassador to Sudan, and George C. Moore, also a U.S. diplomat, were held hostage and then killed by terrorists at the U.S. Embassy in Khartoum. It seems likely that Fatah was responsible for the attack.

September 8, 1974, Athens, Greece. TWA Flight 841, flying from Tel Aviv to New York, made a scheduled stop in Athens. Shortly after takeoff, it crashed into the Ionian Sea and all 88 passengers were killed, including 32-year-old Steven R. Lowe, an American citizen. An investigation of the crash conclusively established that it was caused by explosives set in the rear cargo department of the plane.

June 29, 1975, Beirut, Lebanon. The PFLP kidnapped the U.S. military attaché to Lebanon, Ernest Morgan, and demanded food, clothing and building materials for indigent residents living near Beirut harbor. The American diplomat was released after an anonymous benefactor provided food to the neighborhood.

November 14, 1975, Jerusalem, Israel. Lola Nunberg, 53, of New York, was injured during a bombing attack in downtown Jerusalem. Fatah claimed responsibility for the bombing, which killed six people and wounded 38.

November 21, 1975, Ramat Hamagshimim, Israel. Michael Nadler, an American-Israeli from Miami Beach, Florida, was killed when axe-wielding terrorists from the Democrat Front for the Liberation of Palestine, a PLO faction, attacked students in the Golan Heights.

August 11, 1976, Istanbul, Turkey. The PFLP launched an attack on the terminal of Israel's major airline, El Al, at the Istanbul airport. Four civilians, including Harold Rosenthal of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, were killed and 20 injured.

January 1, 1977, Beirut, Lebanon. Frances E. Meloy, U.S. ambassador to Lebanon, and Robert O.Waring, the U.S. economic counselor, were kidnapped by PFLP members as they crossed a militia checkpoint separating the Christian from the Muslim parts of Beirut. They were later shot to death.

March 11, 1978, Tel Aviv, Israel. Gail Rubin, niece of U.S. Senator Abraham Ribicoff, was among 38 people shot to death by PLO terrorists on an Israeli beach.

June 2, 1978, Jerusalem, Israel. Richard Fishman, a medical student from Maryland, was among six killed in a PLO bus bombing in Jerusalem. Chava Sprecher, another American citizen from Seattle, Washington, was injured.

May 4, 1979, Tiberias, Israel. Haim Mark and his wife, Haya, of New Haven, Connecticut were injured in a PLO bombing attack in northern Israel.

November 4, 1979, Teheran, Iran. After President Carter agreed to admit the Shah of Iran into the U.S., Iranian radicals seized the U.S. Embassy in Tehran and took 66 American diplomats hostage. Thirteen hostages were soon freed, but the remaining 53 were held until their release on January 20, 1981.

May 2, 1980, Hebron, West Bank. Eli Haze'ev, an American-Israeli from Alexandria, Virginia, was killed in a PLO attack on Jewish worshippers walking home from a synagogue in Hebron.

July 19, 1982, Beirut, Lebanon. Hizballah members kidnapped David Dodge, acting president of the American University in Beirut. After a year in captivity, Dodge was released. Rifat Assad, head of Syrian Intelligence, helped in the negotiation with the terrorists.

August 19, 1982, Paris, France. Two American citizens, Anne Van Zanten and Grace Cutler, were killed when the PLO bombed a Jewish restaurant in Paris.

March 16, 1983, Beirut, Lebanon. Five American Marines were wounded in a hand grenade attack while on patrol north of Beirut International Airport. The Islamic Jihad and Al-Amal, a Shi'ite militia, claimed responsibility for the attack.

April 18, 1983, Beirut, Lebanon. A truck-bomb detonated by a remote control exploded in front of the U.S. Embassy in Beirut, killing 63 employees, including the CIA's Middle East director, and wounding 120. Hizballah, with financial backing from Iran, was responsible for the attack.

July 1, 1983, Hebron, Israel. Aharon Gross, 19, an American-Israeli from New York, was stabbed to death by PLO terrorists in the Hebron marketplace.

September 29, 1983, Beirut, Lebanon. Two American marines were kidnapped by Amal members. They were released after intervention by a Lebanese army officer.

October 23, 1983, Beirut, Lebanon. A truck loaded with a bomb crashed into the lobby of the U.S. Marines headquarters in Beirut, killing 241 soldiers and wounding 81. The attack was carried out by Hizballah with the help of Syrian intelligence and financed by Iran.

December 19, 1983, Jerusalem, Israel. Serena Sussman, a 60-year-old tourist from Anderson, South Carolina, died from injuries from the PLO bombing of a bus in Jerusalem 13 days earlier.

January 18, 1984, Beirut, Lebanon. Malcolm Kerr, a Lebanese born American who was president of the American University of Beirut, was killed by two gunmen outside his office. Hizballah said the assassination was part of the organization's plan to "drive all Americans out from Lebanon."

March 7, 1984, Beirut, Lebanon. Hizballah members kidnapped Jeremy Levin, Beirut bureau chief of Cable News Network (CNN). Levin managed to escape and reach Syrian army barracks. He was later transferred to American hands.

March 8, 1984, Beirut, Lebanon. Three Hizballah members kidnapped Reverend Benjamin T. Weir, while he was walking with his wife in Beirut's Manara neighborhood. Weir was released after 16 months of captivity with Syrian and Iranian assistance.

March 16, 1984, Beirut, Lebanon. Hizballah kidnapped William Buckley, a political officer at the U.S. Embassy in Beirut. Buckley was supposed to be exchanged for prisoners. However when the transaction failed to take place, he was reportedly transported to Iran. Although his body was never found, the U.S. administration declared the American diplomat dead.

April 12, 1984, Torrejon, Spain. Hizballah bombed a restaurant near an U.S. Air Force base in Torrejon, Spain, wounding 83 people.

September 20, 1984, Beirut, Lebanon. A suicide bomb attack on the U.S. Embassy in East Beirut killed 23 people and injured 21. The American and British ambassadors were slightly injured in the attack, attributed to the Iranian backed Hizballah group.

September 20, 1984, Aukar, Lebanon. Islamic Jihad detonate a van full of explosives 30 feet in front of the U.S. Embassy annex severely damaging the building, killing two U.S. servicemen and seven Lebanese employees, as well as 5 to 15 non-employees. Twenty Americans were injured, including U.S. Ambassador Reginald Bartholomew and visiting British Ambassador David Miers. An estimated 40 to 50 Lebanese were hurt. The attack came in response to the U.S. veto September 6 of a U.N. Security Council resolution.

December 4, 1984, Tehran, Iran. Hizballah terrorists hijacked a Kuwait Airlines plane en route from Dubai, United Emirates, to Karachi, Pakistan. They demanded the release from Kuwaiti jails of members of Da'Wa, a group of Shiite extremists serving sentences for attacks on French and American targets on Kuwaiti territory. The terrorists forced the pilot to fly to Tehran where the terrorists murdered two passengers--American Agency for International Development employees, Charles Hegna and William Stanford. Although an Iranian special unit ended the incident by storming the plane and arresting the terrorists, the Iranian government might also have been involved in the hijacking.

June 14, 1985, Between Athens and Rome. Two Hizballah members hijacked a TWA flight en route to Rome from Athens and forced the pilot to fly to Beirut. The terrorists, believed to belong to Hizballah, asked for the release of members of the group Kuwait 17 and 700 Shi'ite prisoners held in Israeli and South Lebanese prisons. The eight crewmembers and 145 passengers were held for 17 days during which one of the hostages, Robert Stethem, a U.S. Navy diver, was murdered. After being flown twice to Algiers, the aircraft returned to Beirut and the hostages were released. Later on, four Hizballah members were secretly indicted. One of them, the Hizballah senior officer Imad Mughniyah, was indicted in absentia.

October 7, 1985, Between Alexandria, Egypt and Haifa, Israel. A four-member PFLP squad took over the Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro, as it was sailing from Alexandria, Egypt, to Israel. The squad murdered a disabled U.S. citizen, Leon Klinghoffer, by throwing him in the ocean. The rest of the passengers were held hostage for two days and later released after the terrorists turned themselves in to Egyptian authorities in return for safe passage. But U.S. Navy fighters intercepted the Egyptian aircraft flying the terrorists to Tunis and forced it to land at the NATO airbase in Italy, where the terrorists were arrested. Two of the terrorists were tried in Italy and sentenced to prison. The Italian authorities however let the two others escape on diplomatic passports. Abu Abbas, who masterminded the hijacking, was later convicted to life imprisonment in absentia.

December 27, 1985, Rome, Italy. Four terrorists from Abu Nidal's organization attacked El Al offices at the Leonardo di Vinci Airport in Rome. Thirteen people, including five Americans, were killed and 74 wounded, among them two Americans. The terrorists had come from Damascus and were supported by the Syrian regime.

March 30, 1986, Athens, Greece. A bomb exploded on a TWA flight from Rome as it approached Athens airport. The attack killed four U.S. citizens who were sucked through a hole made by the blast, although the plane safely landed. The bombing was attributed to the Fatah Special Operations Group's intelligence and security apparatus, headed by Abdullah Abd al-Hamid Labib, alias Colonel Hawari.

April 5, 1986, West Berlin, Germany. An explosion at the "La Belle" nightclub in Berlin, frequented by American soldiers, killed three--2 U.S. soldiers and a Turkish woman-and wounded 191 including 41 U.S. soldiers. Given evidence of Libyan involvement, the U.S. Air Force made a retaliatory attack against Libyan targets on April 17. Libya refused to hand over to Germany five suspects believed to be there. Others, however, were tried including Yassir Shraidi and Musbah Eter, arrested in Rome in August 1997 and extradited; and also Ali Chanaa, his wife, Verena Chanaa, and her sister, Andrea Haeusler. Shraidi, accused of masterminding the attack, was sentenced to 14 years in jail. The Libyan diplomat Musbah Eter and Ali Chanaa were both sentenced to 12 years in jail. Verena Chanaa was sentenced to 14 years in prison. Andrea Haeusler was acquitted.

September 5, 1986, Karachi, Pakistan. Abu Nidal members hijacked a Pan Am flight leaving Karachi, Pakistan bound for Frankfurt, Germany and New York with 379 passengers, including 89 Americans. The terrorists forced the plane to land in Larnaca, Cyprus, where they demanded the release of two Palestinians and a Briton jailed for the murder of three Israelis there in 1985. The terrorists killed 22 of the passengers, including two American citizens and wounded many others. They were caught and indicted by a Washington grand jury in 1991.

September 9, 1986, Beirut, Lebanon. Continuing its anti-American attacks, Hizballah kidnapped Frank Reed, director of the American University in Beirut, whom they accused of being "a CIA agent." He was released 44 months later.

September 12, 1986, Beirut, Lebanon. Hizballah kidnapped Joseph Cicippio, the acting comptroller at the American University in Beirut. Cicippio was released five years later on December 1991.

October 15, 1986, Jerusalem, Israel. Gali Klein, an American citizen, was killed in a grenade attack by Fatah at the Western Wall in Jerusalem.

October 21, 1986, Beirut, Lebanon. Hizballah kidnapped Edward A. Tracy, an American citizen in Beirut. He was released five years later, on August 1991.

February 17, 1988, Ras-Al-Ein Tyre, Lebanon. Col. William Higgins, the American chief of the United Nations Truce Supervisory Organization, was abducted by Hizballah while driving from Tyre to Nakura. The hostages demanded the withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon and the release of all Palestinian and Lebanese held prisoners in Israel. The U.S. government refused to answer the request. Hizballah later claimed they killed Higgins.

December 21, 1988, Lockerbie, Scotland. Pan Am Flight 103 departing from Frankfurt to New York was blown up in midair, killing all 259 passengers and another 11 people on the ground in Scotland. Two Libyan agents were found responsible for planting a sophisticated suitcase bomb onboard the plane. On 14 November 1991, arrest warrants were issued for Al-Amin Khalifa Fahima and Abdel Baset Ali Mohamed al-Megrahi. After Libya refused to extradite the suspects to stand trial, the United Nations leveled sanctions against the country in April 1992, including the freezing of Libyan assets abroad. In 1999, Libyan leader Muammar Gadhafi agreed to hand over the two suspects, but only if their trial was held in a neutral country and presided over by a Scottish judge. With the help of Saudi Arabia's King Fahd and Crown Prince Abdullah, Al-Megrahi and Fahima were finally extradited and tried in Camp Zeist in the Netherlands. Megrahi was found guilty and jailed for life, while Fahima was acquitted due to a "lack of evidence" of his involvement. After the extradition, UN sanctions against Libya were automatically lifted.

January 27, 1989, Istanbul and Ankara, Turkey. Three simultaneous bombings were carried out against U.S. business targets--the Turkish American Businessmen Association and the Economic Development Foundation in Istanbul, and the Metal Employees Union in Ankara. The Dev Sol (Revolutionary Left) was held responsible for the attacks.

March 6, 1989, Cairo, Egypt. Two explosive devices were safely removed from the grounds of the American and British Cultural centers in Cairo. Three organizations were believed to be responsible for the attack: The January 15 organization, which had sent a letter bomb to the Israeli ambassador to London in January; the Egyptian Revolutionary Organization that from out 1984-1986 carried out attacks against U.S. and Israeli targets; and the Nasserite Organization, which had attacked British and American targets in 1988.

June 12, 1989, Bosphorus Straits, Turkey. A bomb exploded aboard an unoccupied boat used by U.S. consular staff. The explosion caused extensive damage but no casualties. An organization previously unknown, the Warriors of the June 16th Movement, claimed responsibility for the attack.

October 11, 1989, Izmir, Turkey. An explosive charge went off outside a U.S. military PX. Dev Sol was held responsible for the attack.

February 7, 1991, Incirlik Air Base, Turkey. Dev Sol members shot and killed a U.S. civilian contractor as he was getting into his car at the Incirlik Air Base in Adana, Turkey.

February 28, 1991, Izmir, Turkey. Two Dev Sol gunmen shot and wounded a U.S. Air Force officer as he entered his residence in Izmir.

March 28, 1991, Jubial, Saudi Arabia. Three U.S. marines were shot at and injured by an unknown terrorist while driving near Camp Three, Jubial. No organization claimed responsibility for the attack.

October 28, 1991, Ankara, Turkey. Victor Marwick, an American soldier serving at the Turkish-American base, Tuslog, was killed and his wife wounded in a car bomb attack. The Turkish Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

October 28, 1991, Istanbul, Turkey. Two car bombings killed a U.S. Air Force sergeant and severely wounded an Egyptian diplomat in Istanbul. Turkish Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.

November 8, 1991, Beirut, Lebanon. A 100-kg car bomb destroyed the administration building of the American University in Beirut, killing one person and wounding at least a dozen.

October 12, 1992, Umm Qasr, Iraq. A U.S. soldier serving with the United Nations was stabbed and wounded near the port of Umm Qasr. No organization claimed responsibility for the attack.

January 25, 1993, Virginia, United States. A Pakistani gunman opened fire on Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) employees standing outside of the building. Two agents, Frank Darling and Bennett Lansing, were killed and three others wounded. The assailant was never caught and reportedly fled to Pakistan.

February 26, 1993, Cairo, Egypt. A bomb exploded inside a café in downtown Cairo killing three. Among the 18 wounded were two U.S. citizens. No one claimed responsibility for the attack.

February 26, 1993, New York, United States. A massive van bomb exploded in an underground parking garage below the World Trade Center in New York City, killing six and wounding 1,042. Four Islamist activists were responsible for the attack. Ramzi Ahmed Yousef, the operation's alleged mastermind, escaped but was later arrested in Pakistan and extradited to the United States. Abd al-Hakim Murad, another suspected conspirator, was arrested by local authorities in the Philippines and handed over to the United States. The two, along with two other terrorists, were tried in the U.S. and sentenced to 240 years.
April 14, 1993, Kuwait. The Iraqi intelligence service attempted to assassinate former U.S. President George Bush during a visit to Kuwait. In retaliation, the U.S. launched a cruise missile attack two months later on the Iraqi capital, Baghdad.

July 5, 1993, Southeast Turkey. In eight separate incidents, the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) kidnapped a total of 19 Western tourists traveling in southeastern Turkey. The hostages, including U.S. citizen Colin Patrick Starger, were released unharmed after spending several weeks in captivity.

December 1, 1993, north of Jerusalem, West Bank. Yitzhak Weinstock, 19, whose family came from Los Angeles, CA, was killed in a drive-by shooting. Hamas took responsibility for the attack

Sometime in 1994: near Atzmona, Gaza. U.S. citizen Mrs. Sheila Deutsch of Brooklyn, NY injured in a shooting attack.

October 9, 1994. Nachshon Wachsman, 19, whose family came from New York, was kidnapped and then murdered by Hamas.

October 9, 1994: Jerusalem, Israel. Shooting attack on cafe-goers in Jerusalem. U.S. citizens Scot Doberstein and Eric Goldberg were injured.

March 8, 1995, Karachi, Pakistan. Two unidentified gunmen armed with AK-47 assault rifles opened fire on a U.S. Consulate van in Karachi, killing two U.S. diplomats, Jacqueline Keys Van Landingham and Gary C. Durell, and wounding a third, Mark McCloy.

April 9, 1995, Kfar Darom and Netzarim, Gaza Strip. Two suicide attacks were carried out within a few hours of each other in Jewish settlements in the Gaza Strip. In the first attack a suicide bomber crashed an explosive-rigged van into an Israeli bus in Netzarim, killing eight including U.S. citizen Alisa Flatow, 20, of West Orange, NJ. More than 30 others were injured. In the second attack, a suicide bomber detonated a car bomb in the midst of a convoy of cars in Kfar Darom, injuring 12. The Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ) Shaqaqi Faction claimed responsibility for the attacks. U.S. citizens Chava Levine and Seth Klein were injured.

June 15, 1995: Jerusalem, Israel. U.S. citizen Howard Tavens of Cleveland, OH was injured in a stabbing attack.

July 4, 1995, Kashmir, India. In Kashmir, a previously unknown militant group, Al-Faran, with suspected links to a Kashmiri separatist group in Pakistan, took hostage six tourists, including two U.S. citizens. They demanded the release of Muslim militants held in Indian prisons. One of the U.S. citizens escaped on July 8, while on August 13 the decapitated body of the Norwegian hostage was found along with a note stating that the other hostages also would be killed if the group's demands were not met. The Indian Government refused. Both Indian and American authorities believe the rest of the hostages were most likely killed in 1996 by their jailers.

August 1995, Istanbul, Turkey. A bombing of Istanbul's popular Taksim Square injured two U.S. citizens. This attack was part of a three-year-old attempt by the PKK to drive foreign tourists away from Turkey by striking at tourist sites.

August 21, 1995, Jerusalem, Israel. A bus bombing in Jerusalem by the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) killed four, including American Joan Davenny of New Haven, CT, and wounded more than 100. U.S. citizens injured: Chanoch Bleier, Judith Shulewitz, Bernard Batta.

September 9, 1995. Ma'ale Michmash. American killed: Unborn child of Mrs. Mara Frey of Chicago. Mara Frey was injured.

November 9, 1995, Algiers, Algeria. Islamic extremists set fire to a warehouse belonging to the U.S. Embassy, threatened the Algerian security guard because he was working for the United States, and demanded to know whether any U.S. citizens were present. The Armed Islamic Group (GIA) probably carried out the attacks. The group had threatened to strike other foreign targets and especially U.S. objectives in Algeria, and the attack's style was similar to past GIA operations against foreign facilities.

November 13, 1995, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. A car bomb exploded in the parking lot outside of the Riyadh headquarters of the Office of the Program Manager/Saudi Arabian National Guard, killing seven persons, five of them U.S. citizens, and wounding 42. The blast severely damaged the three-story building, which houses a U.S. military advisory group, and several neighboring office buildings. Three groups -- the Islamic Movement for Change, the Tigers of the Gulf, and the Combatant Partisans of God -- claimed responsibility for the attack.

February 25, 1996, Jerusalem, Israel. A suicide bomber blew up a commuter bus in Jerusalem, killing 26, including three U.S. citizens, and injuring 80 others, among them another two U.S. citizens. Hamas claimed responsibility for the bombing. U. S. citizens killed: Sara Duker, of Teaneck, NJ, Matthew Eisenfeld of West Hartford, CT, Ira Weinstein of Bronx, NY. U.S. citizens injured: Beatrice Kramer, Steven Lapides.

March 4, 1996, Tel Aviv, Israel. A suicide bomber detonated an explosive device outside the Dizengoff Center, Tel Aviv's largest shopping mall, killing 20 persons and injuring 75 others, including two U.S. citizens. Both Hamas and the Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the bombing. U.S. citizens injured included Julie K. Negrin of Seattle, WA.

May 13, 1996, Beit-El, West Bank. Arab gunmen opened fire on a hitchhiking stand near Beit El, wounding three Israelis and killing David Boim, 17, an American-Israeli from New York. No one claimed responsibility for the attack, although either the Islamic Jihad or Hamas are suspected. U.S. citizens injured: Moshe Greenbaum, 17.

June 9, 1996, outside Zekharya. Yaron Ungar, an American-Israeli, and his Israeli wife were killed in a drive-by shooting near their West Bank home. The PFLP is suspected.

June 25, 1996, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. A fuel truck carrying a bomb exploded outside the U.S. military's Khobar Towers housing facility in Dhahran, killing 19 U.S. military personnel and wounding 515 persons, including 240 U.S. personnel. Several groups claimed responsibility for the attack. In June 2001, a U.S. District Court in Alexandria, Virginia, identified Saudi Hizballah as the party responsible for the attack. The court indicated that the members of the organization, banned from Saudi Arabia, "frequently met and were trained in Lebanon, Syria, or Iran" with Libyan help.
August 17, 1996, Mapourdit, Sudan. Sudan People's Liberation Army (SPLA) rebels kidnapped six missionaries in Mapourdit, including a U.S citizen. The SPLA released the hostages on August 28.

November 1, 1996, Sudan. A breakaway group of the Sudanese People's Liberation Army (SPLA) kidnapped three workers of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), including one U.S citizen. The rebels released the hostages on December 9 in exchange for ICRC supplies and a health survey of their camp.

December 3, 1996, Paris, France. A bomb exploded aboard a Paris subway train, killing four and injuring 86 persons, including a U.S. citizen. No one claimed responsibility for the attack, but Algerian extremists are suspected.

January 2, 1997, Major cities worldwide, United States. A series of letter bombs with Alexandria, Egypt postmarks were discovered at Al-Hayat newspaper bureaus in Washington, DC, New York, London, and Riyadh. Three similar devices, also postmarked in Egypt, were found at a prison facility in Leavenworth, Kansas. Bomb disposal experts defused all the devices, but one detonated at the Al-Hayat newspaper office in London, injuring two security guards and causing minor damage.

February 23, 1997, New York, United States. A Palestinian gunman opened fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State building in New York, killing a Danish national and wounding visitors from the United States, Argentina, Switzerland and France before turning the gun on himself. A handwritten note carried by the gunman claimed this was a punishment attack against the "enemies of Palestine."

July 30, 1997, Jerusalem, Israel. Two bombs detonated in Jerusalem's Mahane Yehuda market, killing 15 persons, including a U.S. citizen and wounding 168 others, among them two U.S. citizens. The Izz-el-Din al-Qassam Brigades, Hamas' military wing, claimed responsibility for the attack. U.S. citizens killed: Mrs. Leah Stern of Passaic, NJ. U.S. citizens injured: Dov Dalin.

September 4, 1997: Jerusalem, Israel. Bombing on Ben-Yehuda Street, Jerusalem. U.S. citizens killed: Yael Botwin, 14, of Los Angeles and Jerusalem. U.S. citizens injured: Diana Campuzano of New York, Abraham Mendelson of Los Angeles, CA, Greg Salzman of New Jersey, Stuart E. Hersh of Kiryat Arba, Israel, Michael Alzer, Abraham Elias, David Keinan, Daniel Miller of Boca Raton, FL, Noam Rozenman of Jerusalem, Jenny (Yocheved) Rubin of Los Angeles, CA. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

October 30, 1997, Sanaa, Yemen. Al-Sha'if tribesmen kidnapped a U.S. businessman near Sanaa. The tribesmen sought the release of two fellow tribesmen who were arrested on smuggling charges and several public works projects they claim the government promised them. The hostage was released on November 27.

November 12, 1997, Karachi, Pakistan. Two unidentified gunmen shot to death four U.S. auditors from Union Texas Petroleum and their Pakistani driver as they drove away from the Sheraton Hotel in Karachi. Two groups claimed responsibility -- the Islamic Inqilabi Council, or Islamic Revolutionary Council and the Aimal Secret Committee, also known as the Aimal Khufia Action Committee.

November 25, 1997, Aden, Yemen. Yemenite tribesmen kidnapped a U.S citizen, two Italians, and two unspecified Westerners near Aden to protest the eviction of a tribe member from his home. The kidnappers released the five hostages on November 27.

April 19, 1998, Maon, Israel. Dov Driben, a 28-year-old American-Israeli farmer was killed by terrorists near the West Bank town of Maon. One of his assailants, Issa Debavseh, a member of Fatah Tanzim, was killed on November 7, 2001, by the IDF after being on their wanted list for the murder.

June 21, 1998, Beirut, Lebanon. Two hand-grenades were thrown at the U.S. Embassy in Beirut. No casualties were reported.

June 21, 1998, Beirut, Lebanon. Three rocket-propelled grenades attached to a crude detonator exploded near the U.S. Embassy compound in Beirut, causing no casualties and little damage.

August 7, 1998, Nairobi, Kenya. A car bomb exploded at the rear entrance of the U.S. Embassy in Nairobi. The attack killed a total of 292, including 12 U.S. citizens, and injured over 5,000, among them six Americans. The perpetrators belonged to al-Qaida, Usama bin Ladin's network.

August 7, 1998, Dar es Sala'am, Tanzania. A car bomb exploded outside the U.S. Embassy in Dar es Sala'am, killing 11 and injuring 86. Osama bin Laden's organization al-Qaida claimed responsibility for the attack. Two suspects were arrested.

November 21, 1998, Teheran, Iran. Members of Fedayeen Islam, shouting anti-American slogans and wielding stones and iron rods, attacked a group of American tourists in Tehran. Some of the tourists suffered minor injuries from flying glass.

December 28, 1998, Mawdiyah, Yemen. Sixteen tourists--12 Britons, two Americans and two Australians--were taken hostage in the largest kidnapping in Yemen's recent history. The tourists were seized in the Abyan province (some 175 miles south of Sanaa the capital). One Briton and a Yemeni guide escaped, while the rest were taken to city of Mawdiyah. Four hostages were killed when troops closed in and two were wounded, including an American woman. The kidnappers, members of the Islamic Army of Aden-Abyan, an offshoot of Al-Jihad, had demanded the release from jail of their leader, Saleh Haidara al-Atwi.

October 31, 1999, Nantucket, Massachusetts, United States. EgyptAir Flight 990 crashed off the U.S. coast killing all 217 people on board, including 100 Americans. Although it is not precisely clear what happened, evidence indicated that an Egyptian pilot crashed the plane for personal or political reasons.

November 4, 1999, Athens, Greece. A group protesting President Clinton's visit to Greece hid a gas bomb at an American car dealership in Athens. Two cars were destroyed and several others damaged. Anti-State Action claimed responsibility for the attack, but the November 17 group was also suspected.

November 12, 1999, Islamabad, Pakistan. Six rockets were fired at the U.S. Information Services cultural center and United Nations offices in Islamabad, injuring a Pakistani guard.
September 29, 2000. near Jerusalem Israel. Attack on motorists. U.S. citizens injured: Avi Herman of Teaneck, NJ, Naomi Herman of Teaneck, NJ.

September 29, 2000, Jerusalem, Israel. Attack on taxi passengers. U.S. citizens injured: Tuvia Grossman of Chicago, Todd Pollack of Norfolk, VA, Andrew Feibusch of New York.

October 4, 2000, near Bethlehem, West Bank. U.S. citizens injured: An unidentified American tourist.

October 5, 2000: near Jerusalem, Israel. Attack on a motorist. U.S. citizens injured: Rabbi Chaim Brovender of Brooklyn.

October 8, 2000, Nablus, West Bank. The bullet-ridden body of Rabbi Hillel Lieberman, a U.S. citizen from Brooklyn living in the Jewish settlement of Elon Moreh, was found at the entrance to the West Bank town of Nablus. Lieberman had headed there after hearing that Palestinians had desecrated the religious site, Joseph's Tomb. No organization claimed responsibility for the murder.

October 12, 2000, Aden Harbor, Yemen. A suicide squad rammed the warship the U.S.S. Cole with an explosives-laden boat killing 13 American sailors and injuring 33. The attack was likely by Osama bin Ladin's al-Qaida organization.

October 30, 2000, Jerusalem, Israel. Gunmen killed Eish Kodesh Gilmor, a 25-year-old American-Israeli on duty as a security guard at the National Insurance Institute in Jerusalem. The "Martyrs of the Al-Aqsa Intifada," a group linked to Fatah, claimed responsibility for the attack. Gilmor's family filed a suit in the U.S. District Court in Washington against the Palestinian Authority, the PLO, Chairman Yasser Arafat and members of Force 17, as being responsible for the attack.

December 31, 2000, Ofra, Israel. Rabbi Binyamin Kahane, 34, and his wife, Talia Hertzlich Kahane, both formerly of Brooklyn, NY were killed in a drive-by shooting. Their children, Yehudit Leah Kahane, Bitya Kahane, Tzivya Kahane, Rivka Kahane, and Shlomtsion Kahane, were injured in the attack.

March 28, 2001, Neve Yamin. Bombing at bus stop. U.S. citizens injured: Netanel Herskovitz, 15, formerly of Hempstead, NY.

May 9, 2001, Tekoa, West Bank. Kobi Mandell, 13, of Silver Spring, MD, an American-Israeli, was found stoned to death along with a friend in a cave near the Jewish settlement of Tekoa. Two organizations, the Islamic Jihad and Hizballah-Palestine, claimed responsibility for the attack.

May 29, 2001, Gush Etzion, West Bank. The Fatah Tanzim claimed responsibility for a drive-by shooting of six in the West Bank that killed two American-Israeli citizens, Samuel Berg, and his mother, Sarah Blaustein. U.S. citizens injured: Norman Blaustein of Lawrence, NY.

July 19, 2001, Hebron, West Bank. Shooting attack. U.S. citizens injured: An unidentified woman from Brooklyn, NY.

August 9, 2001, Jerusalem, Israel. A suicide bombing at Sbarro's, a pizzeria situated in one of the busiest areas of downtown Jerusalem, killed 15 people and wounded more than 90. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack. U.S. citizens killed: Judith L. Greenbaum, 31, of New Jersey and California, Malka Roth, 15, whose family was from New York. U.S. citizens injured: David Danzig, 21, of Wynnewood, PA, Matthew P. Gordon, 25, of New York, Joanne (Chana) Nachenberg, 31, Sara Shifra Nachenberg, 2.

August 18, 2001, Jerusalem, Israel. Shooting at a bus. U.S. citizen injured: Andrew Feibusch of New York.

August 27, 2001, near Roglit, Israel. Shooting attack. U.S. citizen injured: Ben Dansker.

September 11, 2001, New York, Washington D.C., and Pennsylvania, United States. During a carefully coordinated attack, 19 Islamist extremists hijacked four U.S. jetliners and forced them to crash into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. In all, 266 people perished in the four planes, and more than 3,000 people were killed on the ground. U.S. investigators determined on the basis of extensive evidence that Usama bin Ladin's al-Qaida group was responsible for the attack. The first plane, American Airlines Flight 11 en route from Boston to Los Angeles, crashed into the World Trade Center's north tower at 8:48 a.m. Eighteen minutes later, United Airlines Flight 175, also headed from Boston to Los Angeles, smashed into the World Trade Center's south tower. At 9:40 a.m. a third airplane, an American Airlines Boeing 757 that left Washington's Dulles International Airport for Los Angeles, crashed into the western part of the Pentagon where 24,000 people worked. The fourth plane, a United Airlines Flight 93 flying from Newark to San Francisco, crashed near Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, most likely before it could hit its target. Hundreds of firefighters, police officers and other rescue workers who arrived in the site after the first plane crash were killed or injured.

November 4, 2001, Jerusalem, Israel. Shoshana Ben-Yishai, 16, of Queens, NY was killed in a shooting at a bus station. U.S. citizen injured: Shlomo Kaye.

December 2, 2001, Jerusalem, Israel. Bombing on Ben-Yehuda Street, Jerusalem. U.S. citizens injured: Ziv Brill, 17, of West Hempstead, Long Island, NY, Temima Spetner, 19, of St. Louis, MI, Jason Kirshenbaum of New Rochelle, NY, Israel Hirschfield, 18, Joseph Leifer, 29, of Borough Park (Brooklyn), NY.

December 18, 2001, shooting on the Jerusalem-Shilo road. U.S. citizens injured: David Rubin, 44, of Brooklyn, NY, Asher "Ruby" Rubin, 3.

January 15, 2002, Bethlehem, West Bank. Avraham Boaz, 71, of New York, a dual Israeli-American citizen, was kidnapped at a PA security checkpoint in Beit Jala and murdered.

January 18, 2002: Shooting in Hadera. U.S. citizen killed: Aaron Elis, 32, son of Chicago family.

January 22, 2002: Shooting in Jerusalem, Israel. U.S. citizen injured: Shayna Gould, 19, of Chicago, IL

January 27, 2002, Jerusalem, Israel. A Palestinian woman triggered a massive explosion in downtown Jerusalem killing one elderly Israeli and injuring more than 150, including American Mark Sokolow, his wife, and 16 and 12-year-old daughters. Sokolow had earlier survived the September 11 attack on the World Trade Center, escaping from his law office on the 38th floor of the South Tower before it collapsed.

February 15, 2002, near Ramallah, West Bank. Lee Akunis was shot to death.

February 16, 2002: Bombing in Karnei Shomron. U.S. citizens killed: Keren Shatsky, 14, of Brooklyn, NY and Maine, Rachel Thaler, 16, of Baltimore, MD. U.S. citizens injured: Lior Thaler, 14, of Baltimore, MD, Hillel Trattner of Chicago, IL, Ronit Yucht Trattner of Chicago, IL, Chani Friedman of New York.

February 19, 2002: Shooting near Neve Dekalim. U.S. citizens injured: Moshe Saperstein of New York.

February 25, 2002, Jerusalem, Israel. Moran Amit, 25, was stabbed to death in Abu Tor Peace Forest in Jerusalem.

March 7, 2002, Eshel Hashomron Hotel, Ariel, Israel. A Christian tourist from Arkansas lost her right eye in an attack by a suicide bomber.

March 27, 2002, Netanya, Israel. U.S. citizen Hannah Rogen, 90, was killed in a suicide attack at a Passover Seder.

June 18, 2002, Jerusalem, Israel. Moshe Gottlieb, 70, of Los Angeles, CA was killed in a bus bombing in Jerusalem.

June 19, 2002, Jerusalem, Israel. Gila Sara Kessler, 19, whose family came from New York, was killed in a bombing at a bus stop.

July 31, 2002, Hebrew University, Jerusalem, Israel. Nine people were killed when a bomb exploded in the main cafeteria at the Hebrew University's Mount Scopus campus in Jerusalem. Five were U.S. citizens: Janis Ruth Coulter, 36, of MA; Marla Bennet, 24, of San Diego, CA; David Gritz (also a French citizen), 24, of Peru, MA; Benjamin Blutstein, 25, of Susquehanna Township, PA; and Dina Carter, 37, of NC. Israelis David Ladovsky, 29, and Levina Shapira, 53 also died in the bombing. U.S. citizens injured: Spencer Dew, 26, of Owensboro, Kentucky; Zeev Spencer; Harris Gershon; Jamie Harris. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

March 5, 2003: Bus bombing in Haifa. U.S. citizens killed: Abigail Leitel, 14, who was born in Lebanon, New Hampshire.

March 7, 2003: Shooting in the victims’ home. U.S. citizens killed: Rabbi Eli Horowitz, 52, who grew up in Chicago; Dina Horowitz, 50, who grew up in Florida
April 30, 2003: Bombing at a Tel Aviv pub. U.S. citizens injured: Jack Baxter, 50, of New York City.

June 11, 2003: Bus bombing in Jerusalem. U.S. citizens killed: Alan Beer, 47, who grew up in Cleveland. U.S. citizens injured: Sarri Singer, 27, daughter of New Jersey State Senator Robert Singer.

June 20, 2003: Shooting attack on a car driving through the West Bank. U.S. citizens killed: Tzvi Goldstein, 47, who grew up in New York; U.S. citizens injured: Eugene Goldstein, Tzvi’s father, of Long Island, New York; Lorraine Goldstein, Tzvi’s mother, of Long Island, New York; Michal Goldstein, Tzvi’s wife, who grew up in New York.

August 19, 2003: Homicide bombing on a bus in Jerusalem. U.S. citizens killed: Goldie Taubenfeld, 43, of New Square, New York; Shmuel Taubenfeld, 3 months, of New Square, New York; Mordechai Reinitz, 49; Yitzhak Reinitz, 9. Tehilla Nathanson, 3, of Monsey, New York; U.S. citizens injured: Mendel Reinitz, 11.

September 9, 2003: Homicide bombing at a cafe in Jerusalem. David Applebaum, 51, and his daughter Nava, 20, originally of Cleveland were killed.

October 15, 2003: Bombing of American convoy in the Gaza Strip: John Branchizio, 37, Mark Parson, 31, and John Martin Linde, 30, were on contract to the U.S. embassy in Tel Aviv through the defense contracting company Dyncorp.U.S. citizens injured: One as-yet-unnamed U.S. citizen (reportedly a diplomat)

September 24, 2004: Mortar strike on a housing community: Tiferet Tratner, 24, (dual U.S.-Israeli citizenship)

Nice thread.

He can't be stopped!

Don't get me wromng, radical Islam absolutely scares the shit out of me just as radical [insert religion, dogma, ideology] scares the shit out of me. When can we expect your timeline on Christianity's crimes against humanity? That's not a slam on Christians or their religion, just a question asking for balance in the argument. Violence of that sort in the name of God is horrid regardles off whose banner it's under.

That out of the way, I do think you're right that too many on the left miss the point of radical Islam, which is to establish Sharia and cleanse the world of sin. As a freedom loving American, that does freak me out. The problem on the Right is their inability to distinguish between radical Islam and regular, freedom loving Muslims who ALSO want to rid their religion of these maniacs. By throwing around insults and generalizations, you lose half the battle by alienating those inside the religion who would otherwise be allies. That's as true of misguided military action as it is misguided speech.

Whoa whoa whoa. You can’t possibly be comparing modern Christianity with radical Islam are you? Christians have and continue to do many shameful things in the name of Christ, BUT the issue is this: Christians who use violence in the name of God to destroy their enemies have no justification for their actions from Jesus Christ, his life and teachings as found in the New Testament. Whereas, Muslims who are engaged in violence and destruction of anyone who opposes Islam, have ample justification for their actions from the Qur'an and the life and sayings of their prophet Muhammad.

It is beyond doubt that the prophet of Islam did encourage the killing and intimidation of his enemies, not just in self defense as it is commonly reported by Muslims, but in the promotion of the cause of God and the spread of Islam. Needless to say, the actions of the prophet were in direct contradiction to the teachings and actions of Jesus Christ and his disciples. So the point is not that Christians have never resorted to violence and other horrible atrocities. They have indeed committed many horrible acts, but when they have done this, they have betrayed the very person that they claim to follow. But when Muslims commit such acts, they can in fact claim that they are following the example of their prophet and thus fulfilling the will of God and promoting His cause. That, certainly, is a big difference!

Let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of Allah, - whether he is slain or gets victory – soon shall We give him a reward of great value. 4:74

Of the Unbelievers: "seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks." 4:89

Allah has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home. 4:95

"For the Unbelievers are open enemies to you." 4:101

For the Unbelievers, Allah has prepared a humiliating punishment. 4:102

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah anything but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was no more than a Messenger of Allah… Do not say "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One God: Glory be to Him: far exalted is He above having a son. 4:171

From those too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the Message that was sent to them: so We estranged them, with enmity and hatred between one and the other, to the Day of Judgment. And soon will Allah show them what they have done. 5:14

In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary. 5:17

O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them for friendship is of them. 5:51

They do blaspheme who say: "God is Christ the son of Mary." They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a trinity: for there is no God except one God Allah. If they do not desist from their word of blasphemy, verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. Christ the son of Mary was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. 5:72- 73, 5:75

Of the Jews: ‘When in their insolence they transgressed all prohibitions, We said to them: "Be you apes, despised and rejected."’ 7:166

"Many are the men We have made for Hell…" 7:179

Remember your Lord inspired the angels with the message: "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." 8:12

Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies of Allah. Whatever you spend in the cause of Allah shall be repaid to you and you shall not be treated unjustly. 8:60

O Messenger! Rouse the Believers among you to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish two thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are people without understanding. 8:65

…Then fight and slay the Pagans wherever you find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war…9:5

Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you to victory over them, heal the breasts of the Believers. 9:14

Fight those who do not believe in Allah … until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. 9:29

… Allah will send His punishment from Himself or by our hands. 9:52

Therefore, when you meet the Unbelievers in fight, smite at their necks; at length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly on them… He lets you fight in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the way of Allah, - He will never let their deeds be lost. 47:4
It is He Who got out the Unbelievers among the People of the Book from their homes at the first gathering of the forces. Little did you think that they would get out: and they thought that their fortresses would defend them from Allah! But the wrath of Allah came to them from quarters from which they had little expected it, and cast terror into their hearts, so that they destroyed their own dwellings by their own hands and the hands of the Believers. 59:2

That is because they resisted Allah and His Messenger: and if any one resists Allah, verily Allah is severe in punishment. Whether you cut down O you Muslims the tender palm-trees, or if you left them standing on their roots, it was by leave of Allah, and in order that He might cover with shame the rebellious transgressors. 59:4,5

They will not fight you even together, except in fortified townships, or from behind walls. Strong is their fighting spirit amongst themselves: you would think they are united, but their hearts are divided: that is because they are a people devoid of wisdom. 59:14

Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure. 61:4
These passages have been taken exactly as written, I have included the Sura chapter and verse for each.

I would be very interested in someone producing similiar quotes from The New Testament about Jesus' teachings.

This is but a small sampling of the hatred and violence that permeates this book. This book is the very foundation upon which this religion is founded. This just doesn’t wash with the ‘peace-loving people’ rhetoric but it does begin to explain the motivation and the actions we’ve seen for centuries. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, partly because it is so popular with those who despise Freedom and all it stands for.

"For the Unbelievers are open enemies to you." 4:101

For the Unbelievers, Allah has prepared a humiliating punishment. 4:102

The very passages you read above and many more like it are being taught to little children throughout the world. This ‘religious training’ is virtually guaranteeing that another generation of extremists are being groomed for violence and hatred while most of the Western world cowers in fear. Yes, Bush is fighting a “misguided” war in Iraq but at least he realizes we are at war. You have to realize that Bush didn’t start this war, just one little battle in it. This war started waaay before him and will go on loooong after he’s gone, and our next elected leaders had better understand the threats we face.

If the so called “peace loving Muslims” do not rise up themselves and take back their “religion of peace” from the radicals, I am afraid they will suffer the same fate as the Japanese and German people did.

"Except for Ending Slavery, Fascism, Nazism and Communism, War Has Never Solved Anything"

"So the point is not that Christians have never resorted to violence and other horrible atrocities. They have indeed committed many horrible acts, but when they have done this, they have betrayed the very person that they claim to follow. "

Excellent point and one too many hate mongering "Christians" ignore.

But you know full well there are questionable passages in the New Testament.

Here's a bunch: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt.html

Acts 3:23 - "And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people."

Romans 1:24-32 - "Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

Hebrews 10:28-29 - "He that despised Moses' law died without mercy. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

And don't even get started on the Old Testament which advocates killing anybody who worships other gods (Deuteronomy 13:6-10, Exodus 22:20) as well as those who curse their parents, take God's name in vain, etc.

That same site I linked at the top also has a similar list of cruelty in the Quran: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html

And it links to a comparison of the amount of violence in the two religions: http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/06/which-is-more-violent-bible-or-quran.html

And while we're at it, let's not let old Mitt Romney of the hook either: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/BOM/cr/long.html

Good times!

"Excellent point and one too many hate mongering "Christians" ignore".

Good one! That sure was a softball wasn't it? :-)

I understand your hatred for Bush is clouding your judgement and I'll probably never convince you a war against radical Islam is just and necessary, but he will be gone soon and I can only hope for all our sakes that our future leaders realize that and actually fight it to WIN. If not, we're all doomed.

"Except for Ending Slavery, Fascism, Nazism and Communism, War Has Never Solved Anything"

Hey Jake,

I hate to disappoint you, but those quotes in the New Testament are taken out the Old Testament. You will NOT find teachings from Jesus advocating violence against non-believers. Unlike old Mo.

Hey Brian, I wasn't being facetious in my comment about it being a good point. I eamnt too many people who claim to be Christian but then preach hateful rhetoric miss the meaning in Christ's message. I'm talking about the Fred Phelps types and those who think that killing people who sin (be they gay, adulterous, or simply "liberal").

Off-topic, but I am also fascinated with the new gospel of wealth. I watched for an hour and half as Joel Osteen said, without a hint of irony, that Christians are special people and, therefore, deserve to be wealthy. He literally said they live under different rules and should not be embarassed to expect different treatment. I was astonished. What's that they say about rich people and the eye of a needle...?

Derek, I think we're getting off point here. This is NOT a Christian vs. Islam war, It is the radical Islamists vs. EVERYBODY who is not a radical Islamist. Those maniacs murder plenty of Muslims who they feel are not fundamentalist enough. They're friggin' whackjobs and don't deserve to breathe our air.

Yep, I agree. But again, I think it's important to distinguish between radical Islamists and mainstream muslims. When you don't, you lose an important ally in the fight.

I absolutely agree and I sincerely hope the mainstream Muslims will stand up and help us rid the world of this plague.

Brian, you'd better crack open your Bible, man. You're not disappointing me; you're disappointing Jesus! Acts, Romans, and Hebrews are all books in the NEW Testament.

Seriously dude, are you questioning my Bible knowledge? I know my shit.

The book of Acts is traditionally attributed to being written by Luke, while Romans and Hebrews were written by Paul, both of whom were followers of Jesus.

Also, keep in mind that there is a lot more to the Christian belief system than merely the teachings of Jesus. Most of the actual tenets of the religion are based on the letters from Paul (which, in my opinion, completely subvert the true message of Jesus). Nevertheless, the whole book is the divinely inspired Word of God, right? That's how we know the world was built in six days.

Jake, Trust me, I do not want to get into an argument with you about the Bible. (kinda like bringing a knife to a gun fight)I realize those books are in the New Testament, but those quotes are refering to stuff from the Old Testament. For example, that quote from Acts is Luke quoting Moses. Anyways, besides the point, as much as you despise the whacko fundamentalist Christians, as do I, they are not slitting the throats of innocent people.

No, they're just bombing Planned parenthood clinics and protesting soldiers' funerals...

Low blow, I know.

(LOL) aaargh, oh brother, I give up. :-) It's been great fun guys. Take care.


"Except for Ending Slavery, Fascism, Nazism and Communism, War Has Never Solved Anything"

Holy shit, I missed a good one, here!

You rock, Brian--you are 100% right, so far. Please stick around.

Yes, please keep commenting Brian. It's great to have a well thought out argument from the "other" side. We don't want to yell into an echo chamber.

Don't look at it as "the other side," even. Think of it more as "helping Derek, Jake, and Mike come to a clearer understanding of the issue."


[someday I will make it into the city for a GloNo function and you guys can punch my smug ass out, then]

I'm up for whatever, as long as we don't let planning for the next invasion fall into the hands of those who pretended to plan the last one.

What "next invasion" do you have in mind? And if you're indeed up for it, can we assume you're in the military or willing to join?

I'm in Oliver's Army. Don't fuck with us because we're here to stay.

“Don't look at it as "the other side," even. Think of it more as "helping Derek, Jake, and Mike come to a clearer understanding of the issue."

Hey Barabajagal,

I just can’t resist. :)

Yeah, I’ve come to the conclusion over the years that our friends on the left are incapable of seeing the light. Their hatred of Bush blinds them to the truth and the threats that we face. They hate our aggression in Iraq so much yet, if wasn’t for their boy, William Jefferson, we wouldn’t even be in Iraq right now. (WHAT?!? You say)


-Willie ran from Somalia with his tail between his legs like a spineless coward, this emboldened osama bin-dickhead and he realized if he slapped the US around a little bit we would run away and hide like a scared little bitch.

-saddam hussein played him like a fiddle for eight years. After having his forces decimated, he was allowed to rebuild his military AND wmd capabilities with the non-existent oil for food program monies, and openly violated all resolutions against him without any worry of a US response. Except of course, for the ridiculously ineffective, occasional missile launch.

-Also, by castrating the military and decimating the intelligence community of the United States with his "human rights scrub" policy, saying in effect that US intelligence agencies could not use “undesirable” characters as informants. (well documented by the way) How the f--- are you supposed to gain info on a bunch of murdering savages without infiltrating their ranks of “undesirables”?

-Willie the Wimp even REFUSED on more than one occasion, the opportunity to take out bin-dickhead and rid the world of his pure EVIL. (again, well documented) So, this allowed bin-dickhead to go about his merry way, killing and bombing, and culminating in an absolutely brilliant attack that slaughtered almost 3000 innocent people.

So, it is very simple my friends, if Mr. Bill would have had the stones to take out bin-dickhead and stand up to saddam we would have no need to be in Iraq right now would we. No bin-dickhead = No 9-11 = No war in Iraq. Simple math.


(And don't get me started on him selling us out to the Chinese and being used by the N. Koreans) :-)

"Except for Ending Slavery, Fascism, Nazism and Communism, War Has Never Solved Anything"

testes 123

Then again, if Ronald Reagan wouldn't have TRAINED bin-Dickhead...

Reagan ignored the rise of Islamic militancy in Afghanistan and refused Gorbachev's offer to withdraw which would have ended the rise of the crazies.

Also, if Bush (and everybody) wanted to take out Saddam so bad, why not go through the UN like his dad did?

bin-dickhead was a useful idiot for Reagan at that time in history. Reagan can't be blamed for ignoring the threat of bin-dickhead. Not for years would anyone see bin-dickhead as a leader in global terrorism; not till the 1990s would his organization emerge as a serious threat. Reagan was more concerned about a few thousand nukes aimed at our asses, then a bunch of ragtag guerillas.

While there is plenty to work with in that post, Brian, I'll focus on this one:
"...he was allowed to rebuild his military AND wmd capabilities with the non-existent oil for food program monies"

You mean the military that was routed in three weeks and the WMD that, to this day, have not been found and even the administration has acknowledged did not exist. You make some valid points but undermine them when you fall back on talking points like that.

And I don't really have a hatred for Bush. I do have a hatred for what he and his crew have done to the constitution. I am astonished you, as a conservative, are not outraged. I would imagine you're more of a strict constructionist and yet you have no problem with the erosion of the 4th amendment,the obliteration of habeas corous, and the complete disregard for the separation of powers. I imagine that will change when a Democrat is elected to the White House, but it's awfully convenient right now.

Hey Brian,

Wow. You've built a really rich fantasy world in which to act out your love for Bush and his neoconservative posse. With your comments on Clinton, I see that it also extends to an irrational hatred of his administration that has forced you to fundamentally distort (dare I say lie?) about his record on terrorism.

The fact is, immediately after the 1993 WTC bombing, the FBI - under Bill Clinton - arrested those involved, and they were subsequently tried and convicted. Can't say the same for the Bush administration and those responsible for 9/11, can you?

And after the CIA - under Bill Clinton - uncovered an Iraqi plot to take out Bush 41, we responded with air strikes (not to mention the regular airstrikes in Iraq that occurred throughout the Clinton administration to enforce the north and south no fly zones).

Next up, Clinton sent legislation to Congress in 1995 that expanded federal authority to track and deport terrorists, blocked suspected terror fundraising, and increased wiretapping and surveillance authority for the FBI. He also significantly increased anti-terrorism funding for the FBI and CIA that same year.

Based on a presidential directive, in 1996 the CIA created the bin laden unit to track bin laden (who you so cleverly refer to as "bin-dickhead." Another example of why Republicans should avoid comedy/sarcasm, etc. It's just not in you! Your efforts fall flat).

In 1998, Clinton created the Counter-terrorism Security Group, and put Richard Clarke in charge. That same year, Clinton authorized air strikes against a camp where bin laden was. Your Republican buddies accused him of "wagging the dog." I imagine you did the same thing.

The Clinton administration also thwarted a series of bin laden planned millennial bombings. You may have missed it, b/c the Clinton administration didn't plan a photo op like the Bushies do for every anti-terrorist operation.

As the Clinton administration was wrapping up, Clarke and his group put together a strategic plan for acting against terrorism globally. If you'll recall, it was quickly shelved by Condi Rice, with a hefty dose of contempt for the Clinton administration's focus on terrorism. The Bushies were still in full on cold war mode.

You might also recall that when Bush received the "bin laden plans strike in the U.S." brief, the best response he could muster was "you (the CIA) did a nice job covering your ass" and ignored the warning. That was August 2001.

So despite your blind rage against the Clinton administration, the evidence clearly indicates that Clinton listened to the CIA and FBI on terrorism, recognized the threat, and responded accordingly. When Bush took office, he threw it all out the window. If Gore became president (you know, the guy who won the popular vote, not the guy who was appointed president by the supreme court), 9/11 might not have happened. Because he would have acted on Clarke's strategic plan. The Bushies, on the other hand, contemptuously ignored it. And let 9/11 happen. Then invaded Iraq, even though there is no evidence tying Iraq to 9/11. And now we have a disaster on our hands. And the blood of almost 4,000 American soldiers drips from the President's hands...

Oh yeah, and who has been unable to get bin laden in the 6 years since 9/11? Your buddy George. Why? Because he took his eyes of the prize and decided to invade and occupy Iraq instead, to avenge his daddy...

I'm not blaming Reagan for ignoring bin Laden. I'm blaming him for ignoring the rise of Islamic militancy in Afghanistan. He should have seen it coming (the Ayatollah had just taken over Iran), and he could have prevented it.

In September 1987, Soviet Foreign Minister Edvard Shevardnadze asked U.S. Secretary of State George Shultz for help in containing the spread of "Islamic fundamentalism." Shultz blew him off.

At the time bid Laden was a nobody. He would've remained a nobody had the Reagan administration dealt with Afghanistan properly.

And Mike, the fact that Gore won the popular vote is meaningless in how our presidents are elected. Dems who keep bringing it up just expose their indifference to the Constitution.

Dems who keep bringing it up just expose their indifference to the Constitution.

What? That's a crazy connection to make, Jake. The one simply does not equate to the other. I bring it up, in conjunction with the Supreme Court ruling that appointed Bush president, to demonstrate his absolute lack of legitimacy. There was no legal justification for the court stopping the recount in Florida, especially in light of the closeness of the count in Florida and nationally. All evidence suggested the recount should continue. It's why constitutional scholars view the Gore v. Bush decision as one of the worst in the court's history.

Sorry about my above post--I actually drafted a long response to Brian but got an error message and it disappeared--happens a lot for me on this site. Has anyone else had this problem?

I was going to point out those same things about Clinton. Long story short: while there were a few bipartisan think tanks and intelligence agents warning against the coming Islamicist threat, we were still in Cold War bureaucracy mode. Terrorism was still seen as a law enforcement problem. Now counterterrorism is a plank of foreign policy--as it should be--but that would not have happened until 9/11 occurred--as predicted by these few groups.

You can take Clinton to task, but you also have to take his predecessors to task. Reagan in Lebanon, Clinton in Somalia.

We need a military presence in the ME. The ME needs reform, and we need to protect our interest: oil. That is not a bad thing. History will be kinder to Bush than his detractors allow but it will fault him for many a dumbass move. You see, the goalpostskeep moving: Bush's biggest defenders are now saying Iraq needs a secular government that can keep Iran in check. That is supremely ironic, and always worth pointing out.

I actually drafted a long response to Brian but got an error message and it disappeared--happens a lot for me on this site. Has anyone else had this problem?

It happens to me, too, B. Basically, if I Preview a comment I'm writing, I can't post from the preview page, and have to click the back button in my browser to go back the screen where I originally entered the post, and then click Post. I've always assumed it was a bug in the moveable type system, but I don't know...

Mike, the total popular vote is Constitutionally irrelevant.

That's right and referring back the popular vote is a bit misguided. What is more relevant is the legality of the Supreme Court stepping in to stop what was a state matter regarding elections, clearly breaching their authority.

But that was a long time ago and there are so many current pressing matters regarding clear criminal action in the executive office that I almost don't want to spend any time on debating the 2000 election.

Al Gore won the popular vote. George Bush was appointed to the presidency by the Supreme Court.

The fact that presidential elections are decided by the Electoral College and not the popular vote is irrelevant to those two statements. They are both true statements, and neither suggests a disdain for the Constitution.

Do we seriously need to debate this?

I get the impression you guys are not convinced of my Clinton and Iraq take.
...I'm shocked!

p.s. Mike, If you're trying to defend Clinton's national defense record, then YOU sure have a great sense of humor. Also, I apologize if my referring to Mr. Osama Bin Laden as bin-dickhead offends you. I sure wouldn't want to besmirch his good name.

... By the way, how did Libya get on the UN Security Council? WTF???

I am with you on that one, Brian. I am not anti-UN by any menas, but some of the decisions that body makes does make it hard to defend sometimes. Of course, the Bush administration didn't object to it either and did remove it from the list of state sponsors of terror, so...

A question for Brian, in case you're still monitoring the comments on this post: As someone who supports the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan, do you think the federal government should be raising additional revenue through taxes to, you know, pay for it?

The president has asked for another $46 billion in "emergency" funding for the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, on top of the $150 billion they've already asked for to fund this fiscal year. That brings the total for the year to $196 billion, and brings up the total cost of the two military engagements to $600 billion. Yet at the same time, the Bush administration and a Republican controlled Congress have passed tax cuts for the wealthy that will cost the country trillions of dollars in revenue over their lifetime. Don't you think that is remarkably irresponsible? If not, how do you propose that these military engagements be funded in the long term? War costs money. Lots of it. And earlier generations of Americans were willing to make sacrifices to support World War II, for example. Why is it that today's war supporters are so unwilling to make sacrifices themselves?


Your laundry list of terrorist actions left of Feb 1991's Dev Sol attack on a US Air Force Lt. Col in Izmir, Turkey.


I absolutely agree with you. I've got two brothers in the Army. One has served 4 combat tours since combat missions in Afghanistan started and is currently in flying in IRAQ. My little brother just got back from a 16 month deployment to the mountains of Afghanistan. I'm sick to death of all the theory hawks and soccer dad republicans beating their chests for the Republican machine while not realizing that cutting taxes, and debt-funding these wars is just taxing their grand-children. We've got the spoiled-generation, sending their kids to fight and their grand-kids to pay.

I'm so glad they finally caught Osama bin Laden, it's a shame they couldn't catch him alive, we could have had some embarrasing photos of him in his underpants like with Sadam

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