POLJUNK

Does this mean the US should take preventative action to halt an imminent threat?

This post applies to this entry as well as the "mob video"

"I have a sick feeling that the conservatives in are on the verge to taking another Democratic President. "

please elaborate on this statement - when in history did a conservative take a Democratic president?

Oswald was a communist (if you believe he shot Kennedy - which I do but thats another debate I would love to have). The guy who shot Garfield was an anarchist. Lincoln was a Republican and shot by Booth who was a staunch democrat (though the anti-slavery movement was started by christians (conservatives) of all people and left and right back then was a bit muddy so you can't really characterize Booth as a conservative. McKinley was Republican andshot by an anarchist.

Duke Ferdinand - shot by an anarchist. The Nazis were not right wing - they were socialists -which is in the their PARTY name. Lots of violence comes from the left. So if you could give me some examples of Conservatives bringing down presidents (I'll give you Clinton though he wasn't brought down necessarily and I found that impeachment stupid)

I certainly don't agree with assault weapons at town hall meetings - but how is that different than what Ayers and Co. did in the '70s? What about the recent urine throwing lefty -anarchists at the Republican convention? All ridiculous but comparing some yelling old ladies with "brownshirts" - thats a bit of a stretch.

I try to stay moderate during this time. The right is as annoying as the left. The constant "life is going to end" mentality that permeates through politics is exhausting. I agree with your assessment on the glenn becks of the world and their fear mongering. There's no reason for any of that nonsense. Just like the rhetoric that comes from Michael Moore, and various lefty types. Its all exagerated rhetoric and all it does is disengage people (like myself) or fire them up but in the end a lot of it is based on ratings and appealing to people's emotions rather than their brains.

What I don't like now is the same lefties who yelled "dissent is patriotic" during the Bush years whine about the Republicans being un-American and now (violent - though the only violence at these town halls appear to be liberals beating up a african american conservative).

That "mob" video you posted doesn't look like a bunch of masked "brownshirts" but a bunch of old crabby people who golf with my father. Beer guts and poofy hair - and shouting down reps - no different than the hippie shouts of "Hell no -we won't go." Brownshirt tactics could be applied to anything and anyone but in the end -- its insulting.

we live in an age where cries of Fascism are used to insult the other side when none of us know what TRUE Fascism was actually like - my grandfather does, just ask him. He fought in WW2 and drove a tank and saw all the dead Jewish people stacked up in camps.

When we use the Nazi/Fascist and even Racist label to describe the other side in various debates - it will do no good and just exasperate the situation. I find it insulting to the true victims of Nazis in history.

Do you want to read what a real mob is? Read 'Paradise Alley' - a book about the Anti-Civil War protests by the Irish who didn't want the draft and then took their anger out on African Americans - that is a true definition of fascism.

I do fear violence is on the horizon but its gonna come from both sides...whether its another Tim McVeigh or a Lee harvey Oswald

I guess my point is this - this blog has turned into a "Republicans suck. Republicans are dangerous, racist, dumb, nazis etc" bitch and moan session.

Thats fine too, but at the same time - call out the idiots on the liberal side too. We can agree that there are nutcases of all politics.

Lets see some other examples....not just "conservatives suck" over and over again. I know lots of them, they certainly aren't bad people and I know lots of liberals too...also not bad people either.

You make excellent points, Tim. The Right certainly doesn't historically have a lock on lunacy. Your points about the likes of Oswald and Ayers and others are well taken.

Those people and events have their places in history, but I've been commenting on what is happening right now. I don't see a current analogue on the Left. We have Rigiht-wing Talk Radio and FOX News virtually dedicated to ginning up fear and hatred (not to mention blatant racism - see Beck, Glenn) often using completely fact-free arguments. I mean, the last Republican Vice Presidential candidate is telling anybody who will listen that Obama wants to establish "Death Panels" to execute elderly Americans at will. Seriously. These aren't whackos living in the backwoods; this has become the Republican mainstream. You bet your ass I think they suck.

I made the Brownshirt commentary because these "Town Hells" are designed to interfere with the workings of democracy as opposed to being active participants - they're more concerned that no conversation take place than be a party to a multi-lateral discussion. This is very literally what the Brownshirts did. That some lefties/hippies did the same thing 40 years ago is no excuse (where did it really get them anyway?).

Dissent IS patriotic, but it help if that dissent is based in reality. I certainly don't want to give the impression that people shouldn't protest, if that is what they want to do, but there's a difference between protesting (making yourself heard) and shutting down the discussion altogether (nobody gets heard). During the 2004 election, people who weren't properly vetted were forcibly removed from Republican "town hall" events, so no actual opposing views would be presented. Can you imagine what would have happened if some lefty showed up to a Bush speaking engagement with a rifle? - He would have been shot on sight.

The Republicans and the Right have gone over the edge in my estimation. They've convinced themselves that the sky is falling. It's only a matter of time before one of the more loosely-wired of their lot takes "justice" into his own hands.

Mark my words.

"I guess my point is this - this blog has turned into a 'Republicans suck. Republicans are dangerous, racist, dumb, nazis etc' bitch and moan session."

I have agree with Tim on this point--and I have to take some of the blame. This site has never shied away from the fact that the contributors are left-leaning and I won't shy away from that now. But I do think it's important to not employ the same arguments and tactics as those we criticize on the right in discussing what we see out there. While I am all for funny, biting sarcasm and humor in our posts, I'm not a fan of name calling for name calling's sake. Nor am I a fan of dismissive rhetoric if it's not backed up with some logic and (preferably) evidence. It's easy to call Sarah Palin "Caribou Barbie" and I think she deserves all the derision she gets, but I'd like to see more examples of her hypocrisy and incompetence when we deride her.

Despite the fact that this is a left-leaning site, I also really and truly welcome thoughtful and respectful comments from Conservatives, especially those who come from the Buckley school vs. the Rove school. In order for us to GET thoughtful and respectful dissent we need to be more thoughtful and respectful in our posts. Credit where credit is due and criticism where criticism is due, regardless of party affiliation.

Still though, I love calling deserving people pig fuckers and sewer rats. I'll just be more careful to illustrate how they personify those traits.

Thanks, Tim.

We all get passionate about politics and have our side we lean on. So I can understand when ya'll rant it up on politics. Thats fine too, thats what blogs and having your own opinion and freedom of speech etc. is all about.

I just was making a point that I'd love to read some positive stuff for once as well - the good things Obama is doing, the good parts of the Democrat's platform etc. I think some of that gets lost in today's world of politics. There's just a constant focus on what the dicks on whatever side are doing. I think when we focus on the extreme elements of a party/group etc. then it drives us all apart.

I lean to the right, as you can tell. i've lived on both sides of the Mason Dixon line so I've seen all sides of politics. There's good and bad in all of it.

I can't completely dismiss people for what they believe in. I may not agree, but I can understand how they got there. So consider me your Moderate reader who will check in time to time.

I do appreciate the civility of all this. Most political discussions always turn ugly but here you guys are friendly and I think are open minded individuals so thank you as well.

Tim,

Thanks for your thoughtful and understanding comments. This has been one of the more thoughtful exchanges around here recently. When someone offers a legitimate challenge to my thoughts, such instances provide me with great opportunities to revisit, refine, expand, or sometimes even change my thoughts about a specific topic. Discussion is what this place is all about.

I wrote the original post as I watched the live news report, so it was very "in the moment." Not one of my best pieces. There was something really unnerving about watching somebody with an assault rifle at the event. I'm sure we haven't seen the last of this sort of thing.

There's a point at which language itself has its limitations. Words like "liberal" and "conservative" can mean many things. An argument might well be made that there's a difference between that which is genuinely conservative and the current Republican culture of fact-free fear mongering.

While I hold many positions commonly associated with liberal causes, I hesitate to describe myself as a liberal because to do so would suggest that I would always endorse whatever the liberal position is on a given topic, whether or not it is a good idea given a larger context. To paint oneself into a corner where one makes exclusively liberal or conservative decisions is just foolish. It's not like the liberals don't have a few failures under their collective belt.

Okay, I'm tired of the negativity too. Happy post to follow.